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Re: Real World Routers 8-)

To: Jamal Hadi <hadi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Real World Routers 8-)
From: Florian Weimer <fw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:41:51 +0200
Cc: ralph+d@xxxxxxxxx, CIT/Paul <xerox@xxxxxxxxxx>, "'Simon Kirby'" <sim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "'David S. Miller'" <davem@xxxxxxxxxx>, "netdev@xxxxxxxxxxx" <netdev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "linux-net@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <linux-net@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
In-reply-to: <20030611074007.S39760@shell.cyberus.ca> (Jamal Hadi's message of "Wed, 11 Jun 2003 07:47:44 -0400 (EDT)")
Mail-followup-to: Jamal Hadi <hadi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, ralph+d@xxxxxxxxx, CIT/Paul <xerox@xxxxxxxxxx>, 'Simon Kirby' <sim@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "'David S. Miller'" <davem@xxxxxxxxxx>, "netdev@xxxxxxxxxxx" <netdev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "linux-net@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <linux-net@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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Jamal Hadi <hadi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

> Ok, this is interesting. I have never seen the flows per second
> used for simple L3 forwading. I have seen them being used for NAT or
> firewalling.

Some vendors still sell flow-based routers, and you should be able to
get this numbers if the vendor doesn't try to scam you.

> Looking at the sprint traffic patterns, i think flows/sec is a
> meaningful metric.

It's important to look at this number when buying a router, but I
still think that stateless IP fowarding is the way to go even if you
haven't got specialized hardware (TCAM).

>> Most vendors have learnt that people want routers with comforting
>> worst-case behavior.  However, you have to read carefully, e.g. a
>> Catalyst 6500 with Supervisor Engine 1 (instead of 2) can only create
>> 650,000 flows per second, even if it has a much, much higher peak IP
>> forwarding rate.
>>
>
> So 2Mpps of 650Kflows/sec ?

Exactly.  (You can use a different Supervisor Engine and get stateless
IP switching at 2 Mpps, at least according to the data sheets.)

> We should be able to punish specific misbehaving flows.

This is quite difficult because misbehaving flows often consist of a
single packet.  Managing state for such flows is a waste, but you
hardly can now this when you have to decide whether you want to create
a new flow or not.

If you want to punish per-interface flows, forget it.  Most routers
are not sufficiently multi-homed to make a difference, and attacks
often hit routers on multiple interfaces.

> Do you know if any routers are implementing proper DOS tracebacks to
> allow for inserting drop filters?

You mean IP Pushback?  I haven't seen it on production routers, and
I'm pretty sure that no one uses it yet.

Flow-based traffic monitoring is available on most routers nowadays
(often sampled, though), even on routers that perform stateless IP
forwarding.

Anyway, just dropping packets locally doesn't help you *that* much,
you need cooperation of your upstream (and automated cooperation à la
IP Pushback is still far, far away, I presume).


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