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RE: Kernel build problem

To: "Vladimir G. Ivanovic" <vladimir@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: Kernel build problem
From: "Dunn, Charles" <CDunn@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:47:41 -0400
Cc: <kdb@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sender: kdb-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxx
Thread-index: AcSQQBW7CSwctXiTS5m8fjkWa7Y1CAAAE8fw
Thread-topic: Kernel build problem
Yes, I agree that the original source of this is Linus's belief that
debuggers make for bad fixes. And, the folks at RH can still think for
themselves. They choose to follow the path they are on. 

Other distributions manage to include kdb, RH could as well, but they
choose not to.. It's not fair to blame Linus for what RH does either...


-Charlie



-----Original Message-----
From: Vladimir G. Ivanovic [mailto:vladimir@xxxxxxx] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 12:24 PM
To: Dunn, Charles
Cc: linux-scsi@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Kernel build problem 

To be fair, it's not really a Red Hat issue, but rather Linus's belief
that debuggers lead to patching symptoms rather than fixing the
underlying problem.

--- Vladimir

-- 
Vladimir G. Ivanovic                        http://leonora.org/~vladimir
Palo Alto, CA 94306                                      +1 650 678 8014

>>>>> "cd" == Charles Dunn <Dunn> writes:

    >> It is a pity that
    >> RedHat do not want kdb, it means that RH users have a lot of
trouble
    >> trying to debug their systems.  OTOH SuSE are happy to include
kdb in
    >> their distributions.
    cd> 
    cd> I agree 1000%! I went around and around with RH sales about
this. No
    cd> complaints about the sales person, she really tried to get to
the bottom
    cd> of why this is the way it is, and she even found the answer.. In
talking
    cd> with her it was clear that in 99% of her conversations with RH
engineers
    cd> the attitude was one of: "Debuggers produce bad fixes. Always.
Debuggers
    cd> are evil.".. 
    cd> 
    cd> This is like blaming forks for a person being overweight. Any
tool can
    cd> be used badly. No debugger is a substitute for understanding the
code
    cd> and producing a good solution. But a debugger can illuminate
specific
    cd> problem causes and shorten the debug cycle like few other tools
can...
    cd> This whole debugger thing with RH has been frustrating beyond
words. We
    cd> may even switch from RH to SuSe because of this, but mostly
because RH
    cd> seems to enjoy making life hard for embedded products makers who
want to
    cd> use RH. We are building VoIP test equipment and want to use RH
as the OS
    cd> inside.. They are making us jump through hoops that Microsoft
hasn't
    cd> even thought of yet. It's getting close to the point where it
would be
    cd> cheaper per  box sold to have Windows inside than Linux.. Am I
crazy or
    cd> is that just a tad upside down from where Linux is supposed to
be
    cd> going???
    cd> 
    cd> -Charlie Dunn
    cd>  Empirix Inc.
    cd> 
    cd> 
    cd> 
    cd> ---------------------------
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